Is the “Crossless” Label the Right Label?
Dear Guests:
On going concerns have been raised by men in the Hodges/GES camp about the use of the label “Crossless” gospel. I am going to post a few notes to help my guests understand why the Zane Hodges interpretation of the Gospel has come to be known as the “Crossless” gospel.
Since the early days of the debate over the new interpretation of the Gospel that originated with Zane Hodges, the advocates of the so-called “Crossless” gospel have bristled over use of that label for their position. They often refer to the label as a pejorative. Pejorative defined means, “having a disparaging, derogatory, or belittling effect or force.”
Is the “Crossless” labeling a pejorative? Or is the “Crossless” label an appropriate choice that accurately defines the Hodges' interpretation of the Gospel?
Pastor Tom Stegall has been writing a series of articles under the title The Tragedy of the Crossless Gospel. This series appears in the Grace Family Journal (GFJ). Pastor Stegall recently dedicated several pages to a discussion of why the “Crossless” gospel is the appropriate label for the interpretation of the Gospel coming from Zane Hodges and the Grace Evangelical Society. At the GFJ site scroll down to the Special Edition of The Tragedy of the Crossless Gospel. Download Part 4, and direct your attention to pp. 10-ff.
Pastor Bret Nazworth read Stegall’s Special Edition, Part 4. This was his reaction, which he posted under the Special Edition of the Grace Family Journal.
Just got finished with Pastor Stegall’s first article in the special edition of the GFJ and it is a slam dunk. Once again he proves that GES is indeed preaching a crossless gospel. The fact that they preach a crossless gospel is not new information but the proof he presents is mouth-gapingly astonishing.In the same thread Rachel made an important contribution in reply to Bret’s note,
Terrifyingly, they are aggressively using their writing and speaking to delete the CROSS and RESURRECTION from being Gospel CONTENT wherever they can. The best that they can concede is that the cross may be helpful information but they are equally quick to add that it is “not the Gospel.”
Tragically, the deity of Christ, the cross and resurrection are superfluous details to the non-believer. Use it if you want, but never present it as part of the saving message that must be believed!
By their definition and distinctions we who preach Christ crucified for sins and resurrected as THE Gospel to be preached and believed upon by the sinner are preaching “ANOTHER GOSPEL.” Yes, no matter which way you dice it up, when our messages are juxtaposed, one of us has and preaches “another gospel”.
One of our messages has to bring “anathema” by biblical standards. There is no biblical squirm-room on this matter because they are undeniably different messages.
The GES has left us no room for doubting which one they would believe deserves anathema (as being “another gospel”). To my knowledge they have not said this, but by all implications, this has to be true. Think about this carefully. The message that contains, faith in Our Precious and Exalted God and Savior, Jesus Christ’s death for our sins and His glorious resurrection is the message, that by their definition of the gospel produces ANATHEMA. This message is totally different from their message.
Unimaginably, the message that exalts Jesus Christ and His Finished Work on Calvary is the message that by their definition of the gospel has to bring anathema. Can you stomach that?
Actually, Bob Wilkin has stated more than once that his version of the gospel is the only one, and all others are false (either that or his is false, but of course he doesn't think his is false). Wilkin debated Dr. Darrell Bock (Dallas Seminary professor) several years ago, here is the transcript.From the writing of Zane Hodges, Pastor Stegall demonstrates why his (Hodges’) position is appropriately labeled a “Crossless” gospel. Ps. Stegall writes,
On page 30 a questioner from the audience specifically asks him if “his gospel” is “the exclusive gospel.” He responds in the affirmative. The person presses him further, asking, “So therefore any one who is not adhering to the free grace gospel, in your opinion, would fall under the anathema of Galatians 1?” Now, obviously this person is asking about “free grace” in general, but in context he is referring to whatever Wilkin believes is “the gospel.” In Wilkins’s opening statement of this debate he indicated that the statement “faith alone saves but the faith that saves is not alone” is not the gospel. So this question references Wilkins's specific take on “the gospel.”
Wilkins’s answer: “Yes. In terms of the anathema of Galatians 1, my view is, any one who is proclaiming a false gospel … a person hypothetically could believe a false gospel and not proclaim it. But if they’re proclaiming a false gospel, they fall under the curse, which I take it is the curse of God which falls upon the life of someone here and now. It’s not like the NIV translates it, ‘let him be eternally condemned.’ That’s not a translation; that’s an interpretation. It simply says anathema -- let him be under the curse of God. And so I take it what that means is if I know someone that’s proclaiming a false gospel, I don’t send money into their ministry, I don’t pray for God to bless their ministry. Instead I pray for God to bring them back to the true gospel.”
Also, the following statement from a journal article written by Wilkin is pretty clear: “Jesus made it clear that the only condition [for salvation] is being convinced that He guarantees eternal life to all who believe in Him. Add anything to that and you have a different gospel.” (See JOTGES Autumn 1998.)
“After reading all that Hodges has written…one is baffled as to how the preaching of the cross can seriously be considered ‘essential’.”Here is an example from Hodges,
“I have heard people say this: ‘In order to be saved you must believe that Jesus died on the cross.’ . . . . usually implied is the idea that Christ's work on the cross is sufficient to provide for our salvation... Let me be honest, I don’t like this way of presenting a gospel invitation.” (JOTGES 14:1, Spring 01, p. 11)Antonio da Rosa has written about his personal evangelism methodology. If the lost man were to raise any objection to “Christ’s work on the cross” or His deity, Antonio would stop discussing these truths and just try to get that lost man to utter some agreement with the promise of eternal life and then declare him, born again.
Hodges, Wilkin, Meyers and da Rosa are on record claiming that a lost man can be saved apart from any knowledge, understanding or belief in the cross or resurrection of Christ. Earlier in the debate Antonio da Rosa wrote,
“...my position that the cross and resurrection are not the conscious and necessary objects/content to saving faith, and my position that a man may be born again apart from an understanding of Christ’s death for sin.”
“Theologically speaking, ‘explicit belief in Jesus’ death and resurrection’ is not soteriologically necessary for the reception of eternal life.”
For the “Crossless” advocates the finished work of Christ and His deity are stumbling blocks to their methodology of personal evangelism. They do not hesitate to jettison (“put on the back-burner,” according to da Rosa) these truths from the evangelistic message. They essentially agree to deny the cross, His bodily resurrection and deity on a practical level, if those truths are offensive to the lost man they are witnessing to.
No amount of complaining by any advocate of the “Crossless” gospel, can change the fact that their interpretation removes the finished work of Christ on the cross from what a lost man must know and believe for salvation. The “Crossless” gospel advocates repeatedly claim the label “Crossless” is a misrepresentation. You will read comments such as:
“Since I share the Gospel with the Cross and Resurrection it is a dishonest label.”
“Since the gospel I share includes the Cross, crossless gospel is gross misrepresentation.”
Those of us who use the label “Crossless” have always conceded that these men believe in and would share the cross in an evangelistic setting. The crux of debate and controversy, however, is that they also believe a lost man does not have to know, understand or believe in the finished work of Christ to be born again. Because they dismiss the cross, His resurrection and deity from the Gospel to be believed for salvation, their system has been properly labeled a “Crossless” gospel.
In his Special Edition, Part 4 (p. 10) Pastor Stegall offers this note of acknowledgment
In my book I noted how in the early days of the Lordship controversy (1988-ff.), John MacArthur bristled at the label, “Lordship Salvation” when it was attached to his view of the Gospel. In The Gospel According to Jesus, MacArthur wrote,
Based on the overwhelming evidence from their own writing the Hodges, Wilkin, GES aberrant interpretation of the Gospel will always, and only be referred to as the “Crossless” gospel by those of us who will not surrender the pure doctrinal high ground for the sake of unity. Whether those men like it or not, they need to get used to their theology being known and referred to as a “Crossless” gospel. In reference to the Hodges/GES interpretation of the Gospel the “Crossless” label is going to be used permanently and without apology.
If the teaching of Hodges, Wilkin and the GES on what a sinner must believe for salvation included belief in the finished work of Christ then the label “Crossless” gospel would be a pejorative. Since, however, it is on record that the GES teaches that lost men can be saved apart from believing in the finished work of Christ, the label “Crossless” is indeed appropriate and accurate term for their reductionist interpretation of the Gospel, and is going to be used permanently without apology.
LM
I recognize that labeling the gospel message of certain men within the Free Grace camp as a “crossless” gospel is a provocative statement. Some have already claimed it is a misrepresentation of their actual position, since these men still believe very passionately that Jesus Christ is truly God who became incarnate to die for all our sins and who rose gloriously from the dead. And in addition, not only do they personally believe these cardinal doctrines to be true, they often preach these truths with the utmost conviction as being the absolutely necessary basis of our salvation. For that I am truly grateful. I have been very careful to this point specifically not to claim that they never preach Christ’s person and work, or that they deny His deity, death for sin, and resurrection as the essential grounds upon which God can even provide the gift of salvation to mankind. What I have specifically objected to as unscriptural is their denial that these truths are essential for the unregenerate to believe as part of the gospel to the lost. In this, they cannot claim I have misrepresented their position; for in fact, their position is now well documented through their many published writings and recorded public teachings.Pastor Stegall then proceeds to document “their many published writings.” I join Pastor Stegall and do not question the “Crossless” advocates personal belief in the finished work of Christ. I believe they will speak of the finished work of Christ to a lost man. The crux of controversy and the reason for the “Crossless” label is simply because they believe and insist a lost man can be born again apart from any understanding or belief in the finished work of Christ.
So how should we view their gospel preaching? First of all, we should admit that “while they” adamantly deny that the lost must believe in Christ’s deity, substitutionary death, and resurrection to receive the gift of eternal life, they also insist that these truths should still be proclaimed to the lost.
In my book I noted how in the early days of the Lordship controversy (1988-ff.), John MacArthur bristled at the label, “Lordship Salvation” when it was attached to his view of the Gospel. In The Gospel According to Jesus, MacArthur wrote,
“I don't like the term ‘lordship salvation.’ It was coined by those who want to eliminate the idea of submission to Christ from the call of saving faith, and it implies that Jesus’ lordship is a false addition to the gospel.”MacArthur has since those early days embraced the term. Does any one recall Hodges, Wilkin, Ryrie or any other Free Grace leader claiming we need to respect MacArthur’s wishes and use some other more agreeable label of MacArthur’s choosing? No one did that I am aware of! Yet there are some in the Free Grace community who want to concede to the “Crossless” gospel advocates demands to refer to their peculiar theology the way they insist it should be.
Based on the overwhelming evidence from their own writing the Hodges, Wilkin, GES aberrant interpretation of the Gospel will always, and only be referred to as the “Crossless” gospel by those of us who will not surrender the pure doctrinal high ground for the sake of unity. Whether those men like it or not, they need to get used to their theology being known and referred to as a “Crossless” gospel. In reference to the Hodges/GES interpretation of the Gospel the “Crossless” label is going to be used permanently and without apology.
If the teaching of Hodges, Wilkin and the GES on what a sinner must believe for salvation included belief in the finished work of Christ then the label “Crossless” gospel would be a pejorative. Since, however, it is on record that the GES teaches that lost men can be saved apart from believing in the finished work of Christ, the label “Crossless” is indeed appropriate and accurate term for their reductionist interpretation of the Gospel, and is going to be used permanently without apology.
LM
92 comments:
Lou,
This article is well done. I think one of the most important points is while there is liberty in what term one chooses to employ, it is essential to acknowledge that the crossless gospel of GES and elements of Chafer Theological Seminary is a false gospel, and those who teach it, no matter how dear to our hearts, are to be "accursed" (Gal. 1:6-9).
-- Greg
"Crossless" is an appropriate term for their "gospel". No one is saying their theology is "crossless", or that their personal beliefs are "crossless". But when we define "the gospel" as "that which must be believed to be born again" (which Greg so excellently pointed out as valid from Scripture on Jeremy's blog awhile back), then by definition their gospel is in fact "crossless".
And actually, I don't know why the label bothers them. If they truly believe they are correct (that the cross does NOT need to be believed for eternal life), and are so proud that their gospel is so much "simpler" than having to believe in the cross, I would think they would WANT such a label as "crossless" gospel. I would think they would embrace it, that they would want everyone to know that people are free of the necessity of belief in the cross and all its supposed complications. Rather than shunning the label, they should embrace it and proclaim it, if they truly believe their position is correct.
In another thread on this blog, Greg pointed out that Hodges' book The Gospel Under Siege would have an odd meaning if we interpret "the gospel" the way they are trying to do now. Would crossless adovcates have us believe that Hodges wrote about how ALL biblical "good news" is under siege? Perhaps they would say that they've changed their mind now. If so, then perhaps they could provide the Scriptural proof, indeed the Scriptural counters to Greg's Scriptural proof.
Btw, has Hodges changed his mind on the definition of "the gospel"? Maybe he should put out a revised version of his book; perhaps it could be, The Saving Proposition Under Siege.
Hello Greg:
Thanks for stopping by and your comments.
My goal was to lay out in an unemotional, objective way that the "Crossless" label is indeed an appropriate, befitting label.
The Hodges, Wilkin, GES interpretation is a corruption of the biblical plan of/for salvation.
Although the source of the GES view of the Gospel are brothers in Christ, they have departed from the faith once delivered (Jude 3). The Bible mandates what are response is to be: "contend, mark and avoid."
Lou
Hi Rachel:
You wrote, “‘Crossless’ is an appropriate term for their ‘gospel’. No one is saying their theology is ‘crossless’, or that their personal beliefs are ‘crossless.’ But when we define ‘the gospel’ as ‘that which must be believed to be born again’… then by definition their gospel is in fact ‘crossless’.”
“And actually, I don't know why the label bothers them. If they truly believe they are correct (that the cross does NOT need to be believed for eternal life), and are so proud that their gospel is so much ‘simpler’ than having to believe in the cross, I would think they would WANT such a label as ‘crossless’ gospel. I would think they would embrace it, that they would want everyone to know that people are free of the necessity of belief in the cross and all its supposed complications. Rather than shunning the label, they should embrace it and proclaim it, if they truly believe their position is correct.”
That pretty much sums up my feeling as well. Why do they bristle at a label that accurately defines what they believe? MacArthur eventually embraced the “Lordship Salvation” label because it was accurate.
They have been able to propagate their “Crossless” gospel under the radar for a number of years. Once their teaching was exposed and shown to be false when seen in light of the whole of Scripture, they have become very sensitive to any scrutiny or criticism.
LM
"Then the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and of the other who was crucified with Him. But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe." (John 19:32-35, NKJV)
Lou,
Do you remember LPs?
Rose:
Are you referring to 33rpm albums?
What does this question have to do with the "Crossless" gospel of the GES?
LM
Rose:
Repeating, what does this question have to do with the "Crossless" gospel of the GES?
LM
Lou,
I wonder if Rose is suggesting you are sounding like a "broken record"?
Jon:
Maybe. Rose has made that complaint at her blog.
IMO, the consistent errors of the "Crossless" gospel, requires consistent correction and refutation.
I do not plan to grow weary in well doing.
If Rose begins behaving badly, I can't help that.
Lou
Lou,
I agree. If Rose was suggesting what I think she was suggesting, it really has no bearing on the discussion other than to substaniate the fact that you are indeed following the Scriptural injunction to "cease not to warn every one night and day with tears" (Acts 20:31b) that certain men are "enemies of the cross of Christ" (Phil. 3:18b; cf. 1 Cor. 1:17) due to their false gospel (Gal. 1:6-9; cf. 2 Cor. 11:4). Take courage in Paul's words: "For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ" (Gal. 1:10).
Jon:
Thanks for the encouragement from Scripture.
I knew going into the LS and the current “Crossless” gospel controversy that I was not going to win a popularity contest.
In 2006 when I was dealing with the LS issue some of the GES people were supportive of me. I cautioned them at that time not to embrace me too warmly.
In my book In Defense of the Gospel I NEVER quote Wilkin or Hodges. They had already gone deep into their “Crossless” theology and the no repentance issue. I wanted no part of it or any suggestion I may be sympathetic to their position.
I do, however, quote Dr. Bing frequently.
In the revised and expanded edition I do add several pages to address their aberrant teaching.
Unsuspecting people who reject LS need to know that Hodges, Wilkin, the GES have also departed from the faith once delivered, but to the opposite extremes of LS.
Thanks again,
Lou
To My Guests:
Today there have been several postings in this thread that have been less than cordial, to put it mildly.
This sort of immaturity has been an all too common trait among some in the “Crossless” camp. Bad behavior is often times a by-product of bad doctrine.
I will need to enable comment moderation for the time being. I will look in often to post your comments.
Sorry for the inconvenience.
LM
Hello Lou,
I agree that "crossless" is a fitting label for the message of teachers claiming that the preaching of the cross is non-essential in communicating how to be saved. Apparently, this label hits a nerve, probably I think, because those who teach this idea realize being referred to as "crossless" paints their message unfavorably in the eyes of people they would like to sway.
Personally, I feel betrayed by these people, for in time past I have encouraged believers in places where I've preached to get and use GES materials and to be supportive. And now what! The blessed truth of our Savior's shed blood is reduced by these teachers to something optional where the preaching of salvation is concerned. This grieves me so deeply I don't have words to express it. My guess is that many others probably feel this same way and haven't said so publicly as yet. Additionally, insults are thrown at those of us who do believe the knowledge of the cross is essential to be saved. My view is that crossless teaching is shameful and that we are living right now at a very sad time in the history of the Chuch, the Body of Christ.
Art
Art:
What you just wrote is shared by a growing number of concerned believers, and not just in the FG community.
You wrote, "My guess is that many others probably feel this same way and haven't said so publicly as yet."
Judging from the e-mails I get there are quite few that have come to realize how far from the Scriptures Hodges, Wilkin and the GES have strayed. Some of these would rather not get shot at and insulted the way they've seen others have from the "Crossless" advocates.
Still others are not willing to stand idly by when the Bible commands believers to "contend for the faith once delivered, (Jude 3). I appreciate your voice in the debate.
It still amazes me that these men are fighting against the cross, bodily resurrection and Deity of Christ, but actually believe they are serving the Lord.
The teaching of Zane Hodges and Bob Wilkin has introduced "division" and "offences" into the body of Christ . They have, therefore, been biblically marked so that they may be avoided. (Rom. 16:17)
LM
To All:
On Friday I will be announcing a new series scheduled to begin on Monday morning.
This new series has been prepared by a contributor in the debate over the "Crossless gospel.
I am hopeful that especially those who have adopted the GES view of the Gospel will read the series with a open heart and mind.
LM
I will try to be nice.
"It still amazes me that these men are fighting against the cross, bodily resurrection and Deity of Christ, but actually believe they are serving the Lord."
If somebody preaches the cross, the resurrection and the deity of Christ and urges people to believe those doctrines, in what meaningful sense is he fighting against them?
Hello Matthew:
This is going to be to the point, but please do not receive this as though I am being harsh. OK?
I am going to repeat this as often as necessary. No one that I am aware of, who rejects the “Crossless” gospel says you men do not personally believe in or would refuse to preach the cross, His resurrection or Deity. I would even concede that you may urge the lost man to believe these things.
It is, however, an irrefutable fact that most (*not all) “Crossless” advocates do not hesitate to dismiss these three vital truths from a Gospel message if they are in any way offensive to or rejected by the lost man.
“Crossless” teaching, which I have cited from Hodges, insists that a lost man can be saved apart from any knowledge, understanding or belief in the finished work of Christ and/or His deity.
Antonio is even more empathic on this point which I have cited numerous times. He views a conscious rejection of Christ’s deity as a mere “misconception” to be, “put on the back burner.”
We have shown from the Scriptures that the “Crossless” gospel, which removes the necessity of belief in the finished work of Christ for salvation, is a departure from the faith once delivered (Jude 3).
That is how I can further clarify and say with 100% certainty that “Crossless” advocates fight against BELIEF in these things for the reception of eternal life.
LM
* “Not all” has to do with the split in the “Crossless” camp on the deity question. All “Crossless” advocates believe lost men can be saved without belief in the finished work of Christ. There is, however, an element that insists unbelief in His deity is a hindrance to receiving eternal life.
Dwight???:
You asked why I did not post your comment.
Your comment/question was not removed for being immature or non-cordial. Frankly, your handle is one that I found hard to take seriously.
IMO, your question has a motive behind it that I can recognize and I am not going to play along. You may be innocent of any planned motive, but I know what the purpose of questions like yours is.
If I misunderstand your intent, then you have my apology, but I am not going to entertain the question you asked in its present form
LM
Dwight,
You said that you haven't seen your question asked or answered anywhere. But someone named Trent asked a similar question on another blog (called "Rose's Reasonings"), and I answered him. Look for the post on the thread "Believe in Jesus for Everlasting Life" that is about 15-20 up from the bottom, a post by Rachel on 12/10/2007 at 3:14pm.
I hope that helps. If you have more questions, feel free to interact with me there, or on my group blog.
Dwight:
I wrote Rachel and it turns out your question is very similar to one asked at another blog.
In the above comment Rachel is going to direct you there.
LM
I think you that is a somewhat unconventional understanding of the word 'fighting.'
Matthew:
I don't have a particular problem witn the term, "fighting."
I could interchange that with "resist", "undermine", "negate" or "thwart."
LM
They dont really seem appropriate.
If somebody believed in the Pre-Trib rapture and preached it from the pulpit, but was opposed to making it a part of a church's doctrinal statemen, you would surely not say he was 'resisting', 'negating' or 'undermining' that doctrine?
Likewise I do not think it is accurate to say that consistent Free Gracers negate the glorious truths of our Lord's deity and atoning sacrifice when they deny that conscious knowledge of them is a condition of receiving eternal life.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
Matthew:
A church doctrinal statement should be taken seriously and it needs to be doctrinally sound.
IMO, there is a huge difference between what appears on a church doctrinal statement and the message that, based on the lost man’s response, will determine his eternal destiny.
As for accuracy issues: There is nothing “consistent” about the Hodges, Wilkin GES interpretation of the Gospel. They are the men who have moved, who have departed from the faith once delivered (Jude 3) to an out-of-balance position on the Gospel. It is in print how Hodges and Wilkin have changed their position.
Even the “Refined” label that some in the “Crossless” camp seek to attach to their peculiar theology indicates that they have changed by removing what they consider impurities or “excess baggage ”from the Gospel message that must be believed for salvation.
Furthermore, their “Crossless” theology no longer represents the majority who consider themselves in the FG community.
I think you are also aware that this goes way beyond “conscious knowledge.” The “Crossless” gospel allows for conscious rejection of the finished work of Christ and His deity and still insist that man can be born again.
LM
You may not agree with the Hodges-Wilkin system, but I think you would it find hard to show it to be inconsisten. I think consistency is the great strengh of the Hodges-Wilkin model of saving faith.
Consisten Free Gracers hold that while a person may be born-again despite a conscious rejection of some fundamental truths, this is not necessarilly very likely.
Rejection of the deity of Christ, like belief in Evolution is an obstacle to faith.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
Matthew:
Hodges and Wilkin may have become “consistent” in their “Crossless” theology, but only in recent years. They have changed and radically.
We need look no further than what Hodges wrote in his How to Lead People to Christ two part series.
For example he wrote, “In recent years I have become aware of a way of presenting the gospel invitation that troubles me. I believe I have heard it from my earliest years, and I admit it didn’t really bother me for a long time. Now it does… Whenever I hear that nowadays, I get extremely uncomfortable..”
He was speaking of telling the lost they must believe that Jesus died on the cross. It didn’t bother him, but now it does bother and make him very uncomfortable. Why? He changed!
Wilkin has been following the lead of Hodges. Wilkins’s dissertation was on repentance. Since then he has shifted his position on repentance as far as one could from what he wrote in his dissertation. Wilkin has adopted the Hodges view of repentance, which is as isolated a view of repentance as I have seen in evangelical circles.
Oh, they have changed! They have been less than consistent. Furthermore, I am telling people to keep watching because these strange twists in theology will lead to more changes. Do you know Wilkin this year alone publicly announced another change in his position on the Gospel? The series next week will, in part, review that change.
To reiterate, it is my opinion, that based on the track record of Hodges and Wilkin “consistent Free Gracers” is a misnomer for the advocates of the “Crossless” gospel.
Who moved?
Kind regards,
LM
PS: I'll have more later on your statement, “...a person may be born-again despite a conscious rejection of some fundamental truths, this is not necessarilly very likely.”
Lou -
I don't think the term "Crossless Gospel" is accurate, here's why:
I accept that the finished work of Christ on the cross is, at least in part, the gospel.
My contention is that the gospel need not be believed to have eternal life. The gospel speaks of God's grace - that by which we are saved. Our faith is that through which we are saved. God's grace toward man is corporate while faith is individual. No one is saved without the cross - which is true whether you believe it or not.
The faith one must have is the belief that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. You can import the work of the cross into these terms but I do not. However, I see the cross as essential - it is the gospel but it need not be believed to have eternal life because the work is finished - your belief adds nothing to what the cross accomplished.
That being said - I accept your label - I've been called far worse and rightfully so...
In Christ,
JL
Matthew:
You wrote, “...a person may be born-again despite a conscious rejection of some fundamental truths, this is not necessarilly very likely.”
Earlier this year I asked a question. The question was: Can a lost man be born again while consciously denying the Deity of Jesus Christ if he believes in Jesus for eternal life?
You were among the first and very few “Crossless” advocates to answer with out evasive double-speak, and your answer was, "Yes."
Furthermore, the personal evangelism style and statements of “Crossless” advocate Antonio da Rosa are emphatic on the allowance for open, conscious rejection of Christ's deity.
He has written articles on how, for example, while witnessing to a Jewish man, if that man objects to the deity of Christ, Antonio would press ahead and seek to gain a statement of belief in the promise of eternal life. He would be seeking that promise from a man who rejects Christ’s deity. If Antonio got that belief statement out of him, he (Antonio) would declare him to be born again by believing in a promise from what that lost man thinks, believes and/or rejects about the Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, the object of faith is NOT the LORD Jesus Christ, but instead a promise of eternal life from whomever the lost man thinks may be guaranteeing eternal life.
Antonio wrote this as well, Believe Christ’s Promise and You are Saved, No Matter What Misconceptions You Hold
Clearly, he allows for a lost man to utterly reject the deity of Christ, views it as a mere “misconception” and tells that lost man he is saved if he believes a promise from who he (the lost man) believes to be a non-deity Jesus.
Antonio clearly articulates one of the absurd conclusions of the Zane Hodges interpretation of the Gospel.
You wrote, “...a person may be born-again despite a conscious rejection of some fundamental truths, this is not necessarilly very likely.”
Whether you believe it is not necessarilly very likely or not, you men will proceed as if unbelief or open rejection of any vital truth about Jesus or the Gospel does not matter in the first place.
THIS IS BECOMING ALL THE MORE CLEAR: You men are teaching the possibility of eternal salvation through unbelief!
According to what you men are teaching: Unbelief in His Person, and what He did to provide salvation is an acceptable way to receive the gift of eternal life.
The interpretation you MEN hold is antithetical to many clear Scriptures such as:
“Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also,” (1 John 2:22-23).
“Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God,” (2 John 9).
“These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent,” (John 17:1-3).
“I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am He, ye shall die in your sins,” (John 8:24).
“And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name,” (John 20:30-31).
“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation,” (Romans 10:9-10).
“Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures,” (1 Cor. 15:1-4).
LM
PS: Take a good read of Rose’s opening comment in the Believe Christ's Promise thread above. (The one that appears right after her first that was deleted by Antonio). Also see her follow up at 11:43am.
Just out of interest, Lou, have you read Zane Hodges' commentary on the epistles of John? He handles some of those texts rather differently.
Hello JL:
Thanks for the note. I have only a few moments for a few quick observations I will expand on later.
1) “Crossless” is accurate based on the reasons I have given above. The cross may be presented, but it is NOT necessary to be known, understood or believed by the lost man.
2) You wrote, “My contention is that the gospel need not be believed to have eternal life.” That is an important discussion. because the advocates of “Crossless” theology articulate a very peculiar view of the Gospel. I will have much more on that later.
3) You wrote, “No one is saved without the cross.” I understand you mean that without His finished work on the cross no one could ever be saved. But, you also believe lost men can be saved even while they are in conscious unbelief in His Person and finished work on the cross.
4) You wrote, “The faith one must have is the belief that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.” That opens the dialogue to what we have already learned about the Hodges/ Wilkin/Myers/da Rosa view of the Lord’s titles. You, I trust, are well aware that according to Hodges the titles, “the Christ” and “Son of God” are non-deity in meaning or intent.
Greg Schliesmann devastated that teaching in The Christ Under Siege series.
LM
Matthew:
No, I have not read it in its entirety. I have read brief reviews. It would not surprise me that Hodges takes a different, and again unusual view of John's gospel. I have seen how his followers view John's gospel as if it trumps and negates the rest of the NT whenever it touches on the Gospel and God’s redemptive plan for mankind.
I will provided this link to George Zeller's article, The Unusual and Strange Teachings of Zane Hodges, and
The Troubling Teachings of Hodges, Dillow, Wilkin and the GES
I would appreciate your reaction to my previous comment to you.
Back later,
LM
Lou, I am really not sure what I am supposed to say in reply to that comment.
You accuse us of teaching salvation through unbelief. However, at the heart of this is a disagreement about the nature and content of saving faith.
God Bless
Matthew
Matthew:
Would you agree that under your system a man could be saved even though he does not believe in the finished work of Christ and/or His deity?
IMO, an affirmative answer is a message of salvation through or in spite of unbelief.
LM
Lou,
I thought about this post on my morning walk. I think you need to establish that the word "gospel" refers to "what the unsaved must believe to be saved." I am not convinced that this is what it means. I think it means what God has done to obtain salvation. In order to stipulate to your label of "crossless gospel" [advocates] for my friends, I would need to be convinced that "gospel" means what you say it means and not what I think it means. I think it means "what God has done", not "what one *believes* God has done."
BTW, I was kidding you earlier and you said I was "behaving badly." Lou, you wouldn't want to come across as having no sense of humor, would you? Turning on comment moderation over my LP comment? :~)
I answer yes.
I deny this is salvation through unbelief.
To believe that Jesus is the guarantor of eternal life is to affirm that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.
To affirm that Jesus is the guarantor of eternal life is to affirm that God's ultimate purpose in salvation is founded on Jesus, even if one has major misconceptions about the nature and history of our Lord.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
Rose:
In your opinion: Does the term “the gospel” ever have a technical usage for the message the lost must believe to be saved?
LM
[Matthew & Jon Lee feel free to reply to this question.]
Rose:
The “behaving badly” part is exactly what I meant. Your LP comment once was enough, but you also posted three more times in quick succession, which I of course did not allow to post.
Plus you previously berated me with the “broken record” comment at your site. So, your claim to have been “kidding” is IMO, insincere.
As for my turning on “comment moderation,” that was not for you specifically. There were two others trying to post things I felt were not helpful.
That is all that needs to be said on this subject.
LM
Rose, did you see my link to Greg's post about the subject of how to define "the gospel"? I've also been discussing it with Trent at your blog. In addition, Lou recently announced a new series at his blog beginning Monday. I think you will find it very interesting and helpful.
Hi Matthew:
You answered “Yes” to this question: Would you agree that under your system a man could be saved even though he does not believe in the finished work of Christ and/or His deity?
Thanks for the transparency.
You wrote that a lost man can be saved, “…even if one has major misconceptions about the nature and history of our Lord.”
The Hodges view that you are taking just does not stand the test of Scripture in the NT such as I posted earlier.
Your use of “major misconception” is not very clear on just how far you are willing to let the lost man go in his belief or unbelief about Jesus Christ. According to the “Crossless” view that the lost man can consciously reject the Deity of Jesus Christ. He can cling to belief in the most obscene heresies about Jesus that are found in cults such as Mormanism and the JW. The gross teachings of Hinduism are no barrier either. Yet, these are dismissed as “misconceptions” to be put on the “back burner.”
At this juncture I would direct readers to my short series on William Carey. A team of Crossless” gospel advocates were just in India. I wrote two articles to address the Tragedy of the “Crossless” Gospel in William Carey’s Gold Mine of Souls
When you use the phrase “nature and history of our Lord” I feel that the terms I highlighted in bold sanitize what we are talking about. IMO, the more appropriate phrase would be “…deity and finished work of our Lord,” because that is really what is at stake here; isn’t it?
I believe it is best to deal in clear, precise terminology. This way there is no misunderstanding of position.
LM
A man may believe obscene heresies and yet be saved.
It is a salvation by grace.
We are not saved by the pleasentness of our beliefs, but by our trust in Jesus Christ for His gift of eternal life.
God Bless
Matthew
Matthew:
Yes, but it is a salvation by grace through faith. (Eph. 2:8-9)
If that faith is misplaced, say faith in a non-deity Jesus, then it is not the faith that saves because his obeject of faith is not the biblical Jesus.
LM
There is only one Jesus who can secure eternal life.
If you belive that Jesus, that man spoken of in Scripture is the guarantor of eternal life, you have believed in the true Jesus.
God Bless
Matthew
Lou,
I was just going to say the same thing concerning the correct object of faith. The apostle Paul speaks of "another Jesus" (2 Cor. 11:4) - a counterfeit Christ, a look-a-like Lord - these false hopes are in actuality nothing more than "Satan disguising himself as an angel of light" (2 Cor. 11:14)! "There is a way which seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death" (Prov. 14:12, 16:25). Instead of these houses built on sand, it is "the gospel" that is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek" (Rom. 1:16)! In his commentary on the technical usage of "the gospel", Greg Schliesmann exposes the GES misunderstandings and distortions of this verse with such clarity and strength that it left Jeremy Myers running for the nearest exit!
"In your opinion: Does the term “the gospel” ever have a technical usage for the message the lost must believe to be saved?"
No. It is the gospel message that draws/calls the lost to Him in whom they must believe.
"If that faith is misplaced, say faith in a non-deity Jesus, then it is not the faith that saves because his obeject of faith is not the biblical Jesus."
Exactly!
Matthew:
You wrote, “There is only one Jesus who can secure eternal life. If you believe that Jesus, that man spoken of in Scripture is the guarantor of eternal life, you have believed in the true Jesus.”
Just a moment ago, however, you answered “Yes” to this question: Would you agree that under your system a man could be saved even though he does not believe in the finished work of Christ and/or His deity?
You are stating that the lost can be born again even if he has “major misconceptions” about the Lord’s Deity, including a conscious rejection of His deity and His finished work on the cross.
So, now it appears your position is that a lost man can be saved by believing in the “true Jesus” of the Bible, who is God incarnate/Deity, or be saved by rejecting the Deity of this same “true Jesus”?
You appear to be claiming that salvation comes by either belief or unbelief in the “true Jesus” of the Bible. Are you postulating that both lead to eternal life?
How do you reconcile this?
LM
Jon:
You wrote, "Greg Schliesmann exposes the GES misunderstandings and distortions of this verse with such clarity and strength that it left Jeremy Myers running for the nearest exit!"
Yes, I remember that. It was the last time Jeremy participated in any of these discussions.
Lou
Jon:
Thanks for the reply. I'll have more on that later but not tonight.
Lou
Rachel:
You said, "Exactly" to this statement I made earlier,
"If that faith is misplaced, say faith in a non-deity Jesus, then it is not the faith that saves because his obeject of faith is not the biblical Jesus."
I don't know how to put it any more clearly.
Lou
Jesus is God whether you believe He is or He is'nt.
His deity is not dependant on our confessing it.
If you believe in that Jesus has given you eternal life, you believe in the real Jesus regardless of whether or not you believe in His deity.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
Matthew:
I’ll take each in succession.
You wrote, “Jesus is God whether you believe He is or He is'nt.”
Yes, and we all agree to and accept this. BTW, that comment reminded of a LS mantra, “You don’t make Jesus Lord; He is Lord.” Stating the obvious, which is not the crux of debate.
You wrote, “His deity is not dependant on our confessing it.”
Ditto, see above.
You wrote, “If you believe in that Jesus has given you eternal life, you believe in the real Jesus regardless of whether or not you believe in His deity.”
I must refer you once again to my earlier reaction, “If that faith is misplaced, say faith in a non-deity Jesus, then it is not the faith that saves because his object of faith is not the biblical Jesus.”
What the lost man chooses to believe or reject makes all the difference. The Bible says so in passages such as Romans 10:9-10.
I have to remind you again that you are teaching a salvation through belief or unbelief. Your system allows the lost to have it either way (in his mind) on who Jesus is and what He did for salvation, but the end result is the same. Your idea of salvation is that is can be obtained either through faith in the God incarnate, Jesus Christ, or a less than God, man named Jesus.
I stated earlier that you are arguing for salvation either through belief in, or unbelief. You called that an accusation, but it very clearly is what you are arguing for.
LM
To All:
In Rose’s blog Trent replied to my question on belief in the finished work of Jesus this way, “I believe that anyone who puts their faith in the Jesus Christ of the Bible for eternal life will have it. That means they can have misconceptions, lack of knowledge, but if they are convinced of the truth of his promise, then he gives them it.”
Trent provides another example of “Crossless” teaching. For them the object of faith is NOT the Lord Jesus Christ, but is instead a promise.
Believe in the biblical Jesus or don’t believe in Him. For “Crossless” advocates it does not make any difference one way or the other. Believe in a promise, however, and you are saved no matter he thinks or believes about the Lord.
LM
Matthew,
Your theology of evangelizing seems to be that as long as the evangelist has the correct Jesus in mind, as long as the evangelist talks about the correct Jesus, then the lost person can be born again despite whatever inaccuracies he personally has about the Jesus he believes in. However, the Bible is clear that it is what the lost person believes that saves, NOT what the evangelist believes. If the lost person does not believe in the biblical Jesus, if he has such severe "misconceptions" about Jesus that he cannot identify the biblical Jesus, then he cannot be born again, no matter what the evangelist believes.
Rachel:
You wrote, “However, the Bible is clear that it is what the lost person believes that saves, NOT what the evangelist believes. If the lost person does not believe in the biblical Jesus, if he has such severe ‘misconceptions’ about Jesus that he cannot identify the biblical Jesus, then he cannot be born again, no matter what the evangelist believes.”
This was well stated. I think a good illustration might be Philip the Evangelist and the Ethiopian Eunuch.
“Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God,” (Acts 8:35-38).
In the passage what Philip believed was not the issue. He proclaimed Christ from the Scriptues, but the Eunuch had to express personal belief in who Jesus was, i.e. His Deity.
LM
Lou, you asked me:
In your opinion: Does the term “the gospel” ever have a technical usage for the message the lost must believe to be saved?
I don't think so. I am reminded of sermons in Acts where people are told "repent and believe the gospel" but the context of those is not eternal salvation from what I remember. I will have to check it out again. When thinking on doctrinal teaching on these things from the epistles, I would say no.
You ask the question but I don't see your answer to it.
As I said before:
you need to establish that the word "gospel" refers to "what the unsaved must believe to be saved." I am not convinced that this is what it means. I think it means what God has done to obtain salvation. In order to stipulate to your label of "crossless gospel" [advocates] for my friends, I would need to be convinced that "gospel" means what you say it means and not what I think it means. I think it means "what God has done", not "what one *believes* God has done."
Did you get hit by the storm in Chicago? All our churches have cancelled due to blizzard-like conditions.
Rose:
Thanks for answering the question. The series that begins tomorrow will provide the notes you need to, “check it out again.”
You are going to find more evidence of the heretical teaching of the “Crossless” advocates you call “friends.” They may be your friends on a personal level, but they are no friends to the body of Christ or the Word of God. They have introduced “division” and “offences” into the body of Christ through their “contrary” doctrine (Rom. 16:17) and egregious errors.
In this thread we are seeing from Matthew that they believe a lost man can be saved through belief or unbelief in who ever he (the lost man) thinks Jesus is. It is very clear that they do not care what the lost man thinks of Jesus.
The ONLY thing that matters for them in personal evangelism is this: Did the lost man say he believes in the promise of eternal life? If he did they don’t care if he absolutely believes Jesus is the half-brother of the Devil, they will declare him born again. That is absurd and who ever holds to that kind of thinking has had his conscience seared.
The Bible mandates (Rom. 16:17) that these men, who have departed from the faith, be “marked and avoided” lest they bring this corruption of God’s redemptive plan and their trampling of His deity into any more circlers of influence.
Lord willing, the FGA leadership will root these teachers of heresy out, or depart the FGA and leave it to them to do with it whatever they want. The FGA board is already split on this issue. Stephen Lewis is a hardened advocate of Hodges’ “Crossless” theology.
Did you notice the FGA sponsored academic meeting to sort this issue out was postponed? I’ve shared this with others: IMO, it was cancelled because the “Crossless” advocates, like Lewis, want no part of this kind of meeting. The cover story from the “Crossless” men was that they need more time to study. These men have advanced degrees, but they claim to need more time to study a position (their own position) on the Gospel they have advocated for several years. That is a facade!
I’ll make a prediction: the academic meeting is never going to happen. IMO, the “Crossless” camp will do whatever it has to do to keep this FGA academic meeting from ever taking place. They do not want to be put on record and possibly find themselves at odds with the FGA doctrinal statement. For them it is either take out, or take control of the FGA. [One caveat: if the “crossless” men ever get majority control of the FGA board, then they will have their meeting.]
If the FGA goes fully over to the “Crossless” men, it won’t mean much, because the power and blessing of God will never be on the FGA as long as it tolerates this corruption of the Lord’s Gospel that already exists in its ranks.
As for the Grace Evangelical Society (GES): It has long since lost its theological moorings. Hodges and Wilkin have gone into such inexplicable extremes they can’t be taken seriously.
In my opinion, and based on the biblical mandates for separation, any man who knows and rejects the “Crossless” gospel, cannot be right with God if he remains a member of and/or support the GES in any way.
I am thankful to see that many have made the difficult, but biblical decision to separate from and avoid the GES.
That is more than I planned on, but error is error and the teachers of the “Crossless” gospel are the propagators of this heretical system that is antithetical to the whole of Scripture.
LM
Rose,
Did you see my comment to you above? On your blog I have repeatedly linked to Greg's post on Jeremy's blog where Greg explains many places in Scripture where "the gospel" specifically refers to "what the lost must believe to be born again". I think you will find it very helpful. But also, beginning tomorrow, Lou will be posting some articles by Greg that deal with this issue. I strongly recommend that you read them.
Rachel, if a person was under the misconception that Jesus was a Gentile, would they believe in a different Jesus, even if they believed that He is God and the saviour of those who put their trust in His atoning sacrifice?
Matthew:
If you can find in the Bible whether or not the necessity of understanding Jesus was a Jew or a Gentile is part of the Gospel to be believed for the reception of eternal life then your previous comment would be an important discussion point.
As it stands, we are discussing the necessity of belief in His Deity and finished work on the cross.
LM
Lou,
It was refreshing to read this sort of conviction in your comments to Rose:
You are going to find more evidence of the heretical teaching of the “Crossless” advocates you call “friends.” They may be your friends on a personal level, but they are no friends to the body of Christ or the Word of God. They have introduced “division” and “offences” into the body of Christ through their “contrary” doctrine (Rom. 16:17) and egregious errors.
Matthew,
If someone believed that Jesus is a Gentile and not a Jew, yet they believed the other things you mentioned, yes, they would believe in a "different" Jesus. However, it would not be "different" enough so as to be a non-saving Jesus. A "Jesus" who is not God, who didn't die on the cross for our sins, and/or who didn't rise from the dead is a non-saving Jesus. Being a Jew is not unique. Being God in human form, dying on the cross for the sins of the world, and rising from the dead... pretty unique. And, as Lou said, I see nothing in Scripture that connects our salvation to the fact that Jesus was a Jew.
Hello Greg:
I don't know how I could put it any more succinctly than that.
Believers are faced with one of two choices in regard to the teaching and advocates of the “Crossless” gospel:
1) Obey the biblical mandates to “contend for the faith once delivered; mark and avoid; have no company with them that they may be ashamed (Jude 3; Rom. 16:17; 2 Thess. 3:14-15.)
2) Take the New Evangelical approach: Compromise with the teachers of known and egregious error for the sake of unity.
I am going to cite Spurgeon yet again, “Fellowship with known and vital error is participation in sin. . . . To pursue union at the price of truth is treason to the Lord Jesus.”
Lou
PS: I am looking forward to how the Lord will use your new series beginnng tomorrow morning.